What happens if both are narcissists? Sometimes the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

I am caregiver to my 88 year old mother that has some type of dementia that 5 different doctors have their own different diagnosis as well as being legally blind due to macular degeneration, and she displays some of the tendencies described. I can deal with that, I have some as well. My problem is my way over the top narcisstic brother. He is not in denial or distant from mom, he is ignorant about doing whats best and refusing to do things any other way than his. he does too much, too often, his way. consequently, he complicates and exacerbates things. if i leave mom with him, by the time i get back she is anxious, tense, angry, confused ........... and the interesting thing is that she understands that a lot of the anger and frustration is with herslf because she enables him and she can't help it. i have addressed it many ways including giving him publications from doctor, lcsw, alz assoc., etc. with things highlighted. i want to smack him in the back of the head like gibbs does in ncis several 100 times a day. then to make things worse after spending time, sometimes hours calming mom and myself down, i get angry again because i have to spend time unraveling what he has done around the house, like putting things back where we want them in the fridge after he has rearranged it. the saying, "don't sweat the small stuff" doesn't pertain here because it is these small things that upsets the routine and mom. at the hospital they asked me to come back in the middle of the night to get him to leave, because i have guardianship of mom and they didn't want to use security.

i suggested going to a therapist and his reply was, "if the therapist agrees with me, do we get to do it my way?"

i know there is no cure, he is 64 and it is deeply imbedded. thanks up front for any suggestions and for letting me rant.

Boy have I been waiting for this one! I came to this site hoping for a little understanding and sympathy in dealing with my narcissistic mother, age 86, who lives with us.
I hope that those who are on here who are self-righteous and think that they know everything in how to deal with seniors read this and make an attempt to understand just how difficult it is, and realize that a lot of the times, there is no easy answer to untangling yourself from caring for these parents. It's just not a case of "unloading" the narcissistic parent on a care facility, or, Heaven help us, another sibling who has no empathy whatsoever and would be unwilling to do the caregiving anyway.
A high and mighty attitude does nothing to allay the sadness that comes with never being thanked, never being acknowledged or appreciated, never doing the right thing or never pleasing the narcissistic parent. They are only too happy to steal your life away from you. Your complaints will never be heard, your opinion does not matter and somehow you are expected to find a way to live in their world, while they do their damndest to destroy yours and every small bit of happiness you can scrounge.
Those on this site who are too quick to put in their two cents' worth must never have had to deal with a parent like this -- they don't understand how difficult it is to be kind and to have to care for someone (the parent) who never soothed you when you were hurt, helped you deal with hurt feelings, when you were bullied in school and made fun of - all the while treating you as an asset, not as the child/person that you were. How could they do any different when in their life they always put themselves first above anyone else? Can you imagine how hard it is to treat someone with kindness for whom you have never had anything but contempt? (not to mention physical and psychological abuse).
So, readers, I ask you to try to walk in my shoes - if for even just one day, before you are so quick to judge and criticize. For this is the reality of dealing with a narcissistic parent.

Libracat - well said.

I think they can bring out the worst in a person as they have already stripped away the best. I think we can grow by not allowing them to manipulate us. We can grow by building up our self-esteem , the self - esteem they gradually stole.

I am a compassionate person; but it is difficult to have compassion for the parent that will turn on you in an instant. All I have left now is the power to overcome allowing my narcissistic parent to get to me. I simply walk away.

So, I understand how you feel and your descriptions were worse than mine. You deserve a lot of credit for caretaking in your home - just know - I hear you and I get it. Blessings to you - you are a wonderful person. Take care.

3pinkroses: I am sending three dozen pink roses to you! Thank you so much for your kind words. I really appreciate them and getting even a tiny amount of validation sure helps when your spirit has been so beaten down.
I loved your comment "I think they can bring out the worst in a person as they have already stripped away the best" -- that is for sure so true.
Thank you very much for giving me credit for the hardest job I have ever undertaken in the spirit of just trying to be a good daughter/person and do the right thing. More than once in the last three years have I wished that I could have my "old" life back.
Bless your heart for answering this post! Your understanding and remarks have really made my day today. I am grateful!

I have read that almost everyone has some narcissistic tendencies. I feel like I have been groomed to be a manager since childhood. It is my job to make sure everything runs smoothly. The other day she couldn't find her social security card and I just put my foot down and said ' it's your card and you are the last one who had it, so you will need to find it yourself.' (This did not go over well) When I was in my late teens a counselor told me that I seemed to have the weight of the world on my shoulders. I still do, only the load has gotten even larger. I know that I have some tendencies as well - I tend to want to control things ( maybe because when I was little, I never knew which mood my parents would be in that particular day or hour) and I have very little patience. My mother goes between feeling bad that she puts everything on me, to then expecting me to just automatically take charge of everything, and she has a very low frustration threshold. Anything that doesn't set well with her is my fault.
And I'm sure that everyone on here can relate to how no one believes this because when company comes, or the person is out is public, they seem so charming and sweet that people think that YOU are the problem!
When I was little and we were shopping, she would be just hissing at me about some trivial thing, and then someone would walk up to talk and she would go into the act. If they would complement me, she would say thank you and smile sweetly and then tear into me again as soon as they were gone.
The part that messes kids up is the Dr Jeckyl and Mr Hyde thing - they care, they don't care. You're great - you're terrible. I love you IF you do what I want. No one will love you like I do, so you better stick around and look after my needs. If I argue or complain then she wishes she was dead - so then I have THAT on my head as well....No wonder I'm so tired all the time. It is tiring trying to be a full time employee.

libracat, there are so many posts on this website for narcissistic mothers, and family members that you could do some interesting reading for quite a while. Google the site and you will get an idea about how bad narcissism really is. The traits apply to anyone, not just mothers. Also someone started a post just for narcissism a few months ago, go to the search box and type that in.

There is a ton of sympathy on this site for children of narcissist. Some stories will make you cry and also make you realize you are not alone.

I learned to identify what "crazy making" my mom was doing and how to deal with it. Most of all I realize how narcissistic she is and how my brother is just like her. Hope you get as much out of this as I have, it changed my life.

So just keep looking, there are alot of posts on here about terrible families. So sad but very helpful.

Also, type in The Caregiver & Dysfunctional Families, it is full of information. This thread was started by someone who posts on this site often and just read all the posts. Interesting.

Sorry that is The Caregiver & Dysfunctional Families: How are you Doing? It has had 568 posts.

Thank you so much to all of you on here for your support and encouraging comments. It means so much to me, and is often the highlight of my day.
Thanks, too, for your hugs - it is so heartening to hear all your stories and to
know that none of us are alone in our journey - and there are some wonderful people out there!

By the way - thanks to the person who posted the site of - this site has some very valuable advice and I'm sure many of you will see yourselves on here.....what others don't understand is the toxicity of these mothers and just how much lifetime damage they inflict. The best way to deal with toxic people in your life is to cut them out of it. My biggest mistake was to allow my mother back into my life after I was forced out of my home so that she could again make me dependent on her in many ways - I did it because I didn't think it was fair to cheat her out of the experience of having grandchildren. Boy, was that a HUGE mistake, and I am still paying for it at this age!!

Boy, this has me worried . . . I've got a mother in law who totally fits this description, and she'll probably live to 102! But seriously, as noted, not everyone is 100% narcissistic all the time, so you learn to recognize the tendancies. If all else fails, you should buy them a bunch of adult diapers and tell them your just getting prepared. That will knock anyone down a few notches.

LivingSouth - I swear while reading your post I kept thinking I had just written it. My father died when I was 14 and my very domineering Mother went back to work. As I was the oldest child (one younger brother), I was basically instructed that I was now responsible for the cooking of meals, doing of laundry, cleaning and caring for my brother, etc. Complaining was not an option, and her temper knew no bounds. She dealt with any issue by brow beating the complainer and becoming verbally abusive. She could be very loving one minute and petrifying the next. She was intolerant to any indiscretion and often accused me of doing thinks she imagined I did. It was a fun time. Now she is 84 and suffering from terminal cancer. I have placed her in a nearby AS facility and visit her on a near daily basis. I do her laundry, shopping, take her to and from doctors do her finances, buy her her clothes and other essentials. I am her sole social outlet. She will not make friends at her new home. She complains about the food, nurses, doctors,aids, just about everything. She does this because even now, she is so much better than these people, and the other residents are "old". I feel guilty on a daily basis but don't know why and can't stop. I am exhausted.

If any of you are in doubt whether or not you are caring for a narcissist, let me please give you some examples of the things my mother has said and you can decide for yourself:
"You really messed up on that pasta sauce......it had no flavour whatsoever" (everyone else raves about it and I know I'm a good cook)
"I don't see why you have to look after your granddaughter - she has a mother, you know" (well so do I and almost all my time is spent looking after YOU - besides it's my choice to mind my grandbaby if I choose to - you just don't like it that my time with her is not spent doing stuff for YOU)
"I assumed that when you heard a big bang up here you'd come running right up to see if I was all right" (her bedroom was upstairs and she dropped a heavy book so that I would think she had fallen and be concerned and go immediately up there to see to her)
"I can't imagine why anyone would want a swimming pool - it's just a waste of time and money" (that's because you always wanted one, never swam anyway and never bothered to put one in your yard; it's again because it takes time away from her - jealousy - I set her up out there one day under the gazebo with a chaise lounge, newspaper and iced tea -that lasted 5 minutes because there were too many hornets, the neighbour kids were too noisy, blah, blah blah so I just made sure she got back in the house and went back upstairs to her sofa)
"I don't see why having a bathing lady in once a week is an inconvenience to you" (of course you don't!! it's MY house, I have to let them in and out and sign their papers; and she is angry that a neighbour fellow gets a bathing person 2x a week and she gets it only once - sense of entitlement again)
"So I picked up the phone while you were on it - isn't that just too bad" (if I had done that to her.........!! By the way it's my phone in my home, I pay for it, she won't pay for her own line; she picked it up to listen to see who it was and if it was for HER - I'm not "allowed" to talk to any of "her" friends when they call)
"Why are you sending Kate a Christmas card? She's MY friend, not yours"
"Why is it you can't hear what I said to you? You need your hearing checked"
(as she keeps her voice low - she can yell if she needs to though - while all the while the TV is at maximum volume - so who needs their hearing checked?)
"You don't need another new dress - there must be 100 in your closet" (really? have you been in my closet and do you know how many I have? again, jealousy because I am a very social person, am invited to a lot of dressy events, and need a lot of different clothing - she's always avoided going to things like that because it's "too much trouble")
"Oh by the way, I'm not coming down for New Year dinner - I don't have my hair done" (afraid to be seen in what she thinks is a bad light - after I worked all day to set the table beautifully and made a gourmet meal - just wants to take the air out of your balloon and deny you any credit)
"Well now you've brought me this sandwich when you know I can't chew it" (stopped on the way home from a shopping trip with my daughter and bought her something different to eat - of course it was refused - funny her teeth work on chocolate bars and cookies)
"OK my friends are coming over - just set up a tray with tea and cookies and leave it in the TV room - they're coming to see me, not you"
"The store won't miss this bag of oranges - they just write it off" (last time I checked that was stealing!!
I've got lots more examples but if you see anything in here that sounds like the person you are looking after, then you are caregiving for a raving narcissist!! Good luck to you. You are selflessly trying to do the right thing but just recognize that it will never be right in their eyes.

Two more daggers from her: last night (always at bedtime so she can unload on you and get a good sleep, but you are left upset): "I wanted to ask you a question about my movie, but I couldn't find you - I suppose you were on that d**n computer again........."
She resents my time on the computer because it means I'm not spending the time doing something for her. It's also because I know how to use it and she doesn't (she wouldn't learn how to use a microwave either and you should have seen the scowl on her face when I bought her one year - she's too lazy to learn).
But who is the first one to ask me to look up something on said computer when she wants a recipe or a show listing?
Today's: I had done 5, maybe six loads of laundry. I love doing laundry, it's free (except for the soap) in my building, and I help my pregnant daughter, who also has a 2 yr old, do hers. She saw me folding it and says "Somebody would think you were taking in washing......" I said, why do think it is all right to make a remark like that and her answer was "it's just a joke! you take everything so personally! Why do you have to make a big deal out of everything!" It WAS personal for Heaven's sake and she has a twisted sense of humour! She has also said that I am too sensitive. NOT!!
Speaking of twisted - this is her tactic, to put it back on you like it's your fault. There are those on here who say, it's not worth it, just let her comments slide - I do not agree. This is not right and I will not be the butt so she can have a sarcastic remark at my expense.
There are always comments from her about everything as she is racist and bigoted. I'm sure you think I have described a monster here but she has done some good things in her life.......

I'm just now figuring out that my mother-in-law (99 years old) has probably been quite a narcissist all her life....just because she has dementia doesn't make the selfish "it's all about me" attitude explainable. And, she's passed it along to a certain grandchild who is exactly a younger version of grandma. Bless you and I can completely sympathize!! All I really do is ignore most of the stuff she says because I know it won't be forever....if that's any comfort. And I work outside the home, so we are lucky to have another caregiver to look after Mom during the day. Saturdays and Sundays and evenings we get to put up with it and even those few hours seem tainted because of her complaining. I can't even enjoy cooking in my own kitchen because she finds me and launches into another repetitive, crazy conversation (usually about moving out....which would be heaven at this point!!). Hugs to you.

Oh and I just read all the things your mom has said to you....totally rude. Have you ever told her she is a very rude person? I told my MIL that one day after she accused the day caregiver of stealing from her (like she has anything to steal....NOT!). that seemed to make her think. The caregiver, thank goodness, just laughs it off and couldn't care less. Maybe that's how we need to be, Libracat! I know it isn't easy but maybe try only respond to her if she says something positive...otherwise walk away. They don't like that. I'm going to try that myself.

Good suggestion, Tucsonlady.......by the way, I have my second daughter who is the EXACT clone of her........lucky me, huh?
Yes, I have told her that she is rude, but of course, the minute you call them on something, they visit "De-nial" and turn all defensive. I'll never forget one Mother's Day when I picked up a beautiful bouquet to take her and walked in the door with it to "Oh, no........flowers" Why did that annoy her? Because it meant that she had to go ferret a vase out of the junk closet to put them in, extra work for her, what an inconvenience, etc. - I pointed out that that wasn't a very nice thing to say when someone has gone to the effort, that it was rude etc. and she just says "Well what would make you think I'd have a vase big enough to put those in!! Now I have to go digging in there to find one" etc.
Oh, you poor thing!

My stepdaughter is actually the one taking after my MIL...totally self-serving, however the actual rudeness is nothing my MIL can comment on since she never remembers anything for longer than about 2 minutes. He only answer is "Who, me??". But she has lost all concept of other people's lives. She thinks she can move back home and get someone to live with her for free....someone she will find at the church (where she hasn't been in over 20 years). That someone will have no life, of course, and be content just to sit around and watch MIL crochet in a hot house with no TV. She repeats this scenario over and over, making little variations here and there but the bottom line is that she is moving out....I wish!!!

When my mother was in the hospital at the end of a four-month hospitalization in three different hospitals, her friend went to see her, at which visit they discussed what would happen upon discharge. Since my mother didn't want to go to any "facility" because "everyone in those places is older and worse off than me and I don't want to be around people in wheelchairs or using walkers" (she uses a cane!!), and once she got a look at their menus - never mind the fact that she would never pay to be in one - her friend asked her, "who did you think would look after you when you got out then?" She looks at the friend with this pitying, sad-eyed look and whines out "Youuuu........"
She honestly believed that this friend would take her in, cater to her, do all her errands, meals, laundry, etc. even though she is married and lives in a small house! They had been friends for forty years at this point.
I get a call from the woman's daughter who tells me this information. You can't imagine the shame and embarrassment I felt when I heard this.
It is only in the last year, since I've read so much about narcissism and truly understand it now, that I realize that it was her huge sense of entitlement that honestly made her believe that she had the right to be taken in and looked after by this friend.........never mind that the friend has a disabled husband!!!
I was absolutely mortified and had to smooth the waters with this woman and her daughter.
These people have no regard for anyone else or the inconvenience that they cause others, as long as they get what they want. My mother will nag, nag, nag and pester until she gets her own way. If she buys a certain kind of food and you don't make it right away, you will hear about it day in, day out, and she will just keep on until she gets it, just like a little kid. "What's become of that squash I bought, must have been two weeks ago now, do you ever intend to make it, it'll go bad if you don't cook it" blah, blah, blah....... because she knows that if she nags enough, you'll eventually give in to shut her up, and then she will get whatever it is that she wants.

Wow, I hear all the pain in the voices of you all. And I can relate. I still struggle with my relationship with my mother, who has what I would call narcissistic tendencies. And because of that I just prefer to spend as little time as possible with her. Which is a sad thing. We both miss out.

Libracat I was happy to see how you asked your mom why she thought it was "OK to make a comment like that" as a response to one of her rude comments. Way to go! I struggle to speak up for myself when my mother says mean and hurtful things to me. But I am making progress. I have used the remark "Well, that was a mean thing to say" which feels to me like the right thing to say. It's a way to take care of me. It's me speaking up for myself, but it is not "personal".
And in my mom's case, she is like that with other people too, so in my head I "know" it is not really personal to me. So even though that helps me to process the hurt, it takes a lot of work on my part to remind myself that it isn't personal. It's how she is. It comes from her own place of insecurity and from the lack in her life. I feel both sad for her and angry at her.

Anyway the best I can do is to learn that there is a better way to live life and thankfully I have a great counselor and am working a 12-step program and I have sought out and found resources to deal with my issues. I get my help from healthy places outside of my own family. I can't gain serenity and healing from a place of dysfunction.

Hugs to all of you who are still hurting. And remember, "hurt people hurt people". So the best thing I can say is to seek out help for yourself, adn do what you need to do to take care of yourself, so that the dysfunction and the hurting can stop. This stuff gets passed along down the generations. I can be the generation to do it differently. I can be a different mom to my kids and I have the rest of my life to do that in.

I always thought I was too sensitive.
I always thought I was just too slow to get the meaning or the joke.
Two years of therapy later (I think if therapy as getting better in the fast lane)
.......
Recently I went to the hairdresser with Mom. To please Mom I had the hair dresser trim my bangs and trim the ends of my hair. My hair is long now and I like it long - I had cancer several years ago, chemotherapy, and lost my hair, so now I really like my long hair. Mom said, in the middle of the room, in front of the hairdresser,
Mom: "I always liked your hair short, a pixie cut."..........

Me: "yeah, but I never liked it short" (note, when I was a child Mom kept my hair short in a pixie haircut, and I remember crying after every haircut because I wanted long hair)........

Mom gives me that look that says I have said something wrong ,so, in order to smooth everything over and please her,.....

Me: :" well, short hair looked cute on me when I was really thin" (hair growing back in after chemotherapy - and-losing-20-lbs-in-the-process-thin).......

Mom: "well then, lose weight"

And she was not embarrassed that she had insulted me in front of her hairdresser, or that she had insulted me at all. ......
.She makes these comments 'because she is just trying to help".

.I live here with Mom. I pay my own bills and I buy the groceries and I sometimes help with the utility bills and I contribute (hundreds of dollars each time) to major repairs to her home.
so, last month I found out that Mom has been telling everyone, EVERYONE, that I don't help with the bills, ' it is so expensive having your sister'. Oh, and she told one brother that she did not want me to pay the electric bill because then I would run up the bill!?!?!?!?
Eldest brother flew down to see her this month. Eldest brother's wife spent some time alone with mom, just chatting, mostly about family and Eldest brother. So, the next day she told Eldest brother, in front of me, that he needed to lose weight, said he must have gained 25-50lbs since she last saw him, and also said that his wife was very worried about his weight gain and his health........ Eldest brother looked exactly the same to me as he did 3 years ago, 2 years ago, and last year, not fat. Eldest brother was very hurt that his mother said he was fat. Eldest brother felt hurt that his wife "said" he was fat, and Eldest brothers' wife felt hurt and betrayed that Mom had turned a simple, friendly discussion about husbands and families into an attack on her beloved husband........... And Mom "was just trying to help".
.
No wonder her children don't like each other and don't want to be around.

Anyone get one of these from the parents:
-don't be too smart in school, boys don't like girls who are smarter than they are. (B's are good, don't get A's)
-when you play tennis with a boy, always let him win.
-it is OK to get a bad grade in geometry class, it was hard for her, too. This was before school had started that year.
-why can't you dress like your friend, Sally? She always looks so cute.
-boys won't notice you if you don't fix yourself up/you look like a hussy.
-Why didn't you go out more? Mom was pretty in high school always popular in high school, always had a bunch of girlfriends and always had a boyfriend. Was engaged to be married while still in high school to a boy who had come back from the war (WWII). I was, and am, a loner, very bashful, socially awkward.
-go on a date with anyone who asks you, even if you don't like the boy/man.
-don't use that power screwdriver your brother left, we girls aren't good at that. (3 months ago)
-Never, ever, says I love you, thank you, please, well done, good job, .........
-In the past two years has threatened to have me committed against my will, twice (and this can be done in this state)
Tells me I need to see the doctor and get my meds checked. "you are just not normal".

My real life: In high school I tested out in the top 1% of my graduating class (over 350 kids). The teachers couldn't believe it since I was just a nice B student.
I put myself thru college, in 4 years, including all expenses, living on my own. I met a nice guy and got married at 25 (yeah, I was an old maid), had children, coached softball for a few years, owned my own home, paid my own bills. My husband and I started our own business and grew it to over $10million per year. My husband died and I had a 2 year court battle over the business, and won. Got cancer and handled it myself, without any family help, including driving myself to chemo.....
.
But to Mom, I am just a girl who she has to take care of.

Well, I have posted on other threads - have cared for my mother in law for 7 years now and it has gotten steadily more difficult. It wasn't too bad until she got to the point that she was unable to drive and now unable to walk without a walker - basically, she's in bad shape physically.

The last couple of years or so our relationship turned sour. She kept making unkind remarks, never ever thanked me, resented most of what I did to help her, started accusing me of taking things when she had misplaced them and recently accused me of doing something underhanded with her pension check.

She makes ugly faces when I serve food, always salts the food before tasting it, will make comments that hurt me and then say 'she was just kidding.' She complains constantly. Nothing is ever good enough. She has had 3 new beds in 6 years. She has slept on this one for about a year and has never said it was uncomfortable before - but now that she will be leaving here and won't have any money - she thinks she needs a new bed (we are the bad guys - we won't buy her a new bed.) Her bed is fine. No lumps, no sags, no dents - it's her imagination.

It has gotten to the point that she 'pushes my buttons' nearly every day. If I counter what she says - she will deny saying it, deny doing it or her favorite - 'I don't remember that.' Of course - no one is around - it is my word against hers. My sister has told me for the last year that I should be recording every word - whenever I interact with her. But she would be fine for a day or two and then WHAM - there would be an unexpected attack. It would always catch me off guard. Most of the time I would just grit my teeth and leave the room - which infuriated her. But, lately, I would defend myself and that would make things worse. I have never lifted a finger to her - ever. I am not that kind of person.

Something happened on July 3rd that was the FINAL STRAW for me. She and her bath lady BOTH ganged up. She accused me of taking her pension check (I had put it in my purse and left a note on the envelope on her desk that I would cash it for her when I went to the store. I have done this many times. She willingly put my name on her checking account 8 years ago.

We had a string of 105 degree days and she wasn't able to get out. The following day was the 4th of July and her son was coming to visit. I thought I was doing her a favor. Instead she came into our kitchen in a huff as fast as she could push her walker and hissed at me and wanted to know HOW I could cash HER check without HER signing it. I told her I had done this many times and had never given her any reason to doubt my integrity. I had never kept a cent of her money. She spun her walker around and went into her bedroom and slammed the door. I took the check back to her and told her to figure out how to cash it herself. Her bath lady then chimed in and insinuated that I did nothing for my mother in law. (I had just vacuumed her carpets and scrubbed her kitchen on my hands and knees - but the bath lady wouldn't know this because my MIL tells everyone that she cares for herself and does all her OWN WORK.)

Then and there I decided that IF I don't 'DO' anything for my mother in law - that I wanted to 'really not do anything' anymore - that I would stop being her care giver as soon as possible.

I was so upset that I thought I would have a stroke. I called my husband 3 times at work and begged him to come home. ON THAT VERY DAY I decided I would no longer be my mother in law's care giver. I was done. Finished. Used Up.

I used to be a sweet, caring, kind person. I went above and beyond - catered to her every need and wish. It didn't matter what she did to me - I responded with gentleness and just ignored her remarks. But it hurts and it escalated. It hurts that she rarely thanks me, shows any appreciation. If I do something for her she says it didn't need to be done or worse yet, she will take credit for doing it. She tells everyone that she takes care of herself and does all her own work. This isn't true. I prepare 95% of her meals and leave leftovers in her fridge. I do all her shopping, pay her bills, order and dispense her meds, I vacuum for her, scrub her floors, toilet and sink, clean her commode at least half the time. She does her laundry but I put the sheets back on her bed. I help her with her TENS unit for pain - put it on and take it off. I schedule all her doctor appointments and take her to/from and wait. Sometimes when she needed spinal injections, it required a trip each week and hour each way and a 6 hour wait - that's an 8 hour day! It was always me. And in between mini crises - I was always there - just in case.

Anyway, after the outburst by the bath lady, I called the doctor and spoke with the his nurse and told them what happened and she suggested I call the home health agency and tell the manager what happened. The manager apologized and agreed the bath lady was out of line. Who knows what my MIL has told her all this time. She probably BELIEVED my mother in law!! We no longer use that home health agency. We took steps that week to place my mother in law into an Asst. Living facility. We interview tomorrow. My husband is in complete agreement.

Of course, in the weeks since the July 3rd incident - good old kind hearted me has been agonizing over 'sending mom away.' I haven't slept well and have lost my appetite. Began feeling sorry for her again and so I suggested to hubby that maybe we should all sit down with his mom after breakfast on Monday and 'talk about things' - let her know how I feel and what she could do to help us get along better and bring peace back to our relationship so that she could possibly stay here.

I RECORDED THE ENTIRE HALF HOUR DISCUSSION.

It was an eye opener. If my husband had any doubts about his mom and why she must leave - they were shattered that morning. We tried several times in several ways to make her understand how much what she said and insinuated HURT ME and contributed to the animosity we both felt. I told her that never once did I initiate any of the verbal exchanges - but that I got upset in REACTION to the things she said and did to me. I then recounted several things that she said and did in the last few weeks and told her how much it hurt. SHE DENIED EVERY SINGLE THING. She said I was making it all up. The entire time she never once owned up to saying or doing anything EVER. She denied everything 100%. She did say that I hurt HER and said mean things to HER. She even said I came into her room and turned OFF her TV because I didn't like what she watched. (never did that - not once)

I reminded her of what had happened the day that the 'final straw' landed on my back - about her angrily accusing me of taking her pension check and cashing it without her permission, etc. and she blatantly said SHE NEVER SAID THAT, she never said anything remotely LIKE that. She never came in here and accused me of anything. She DOES remember me getting upset with HER and the bath lady but said that was MY fault.

She DOES remember me telling her that all she ever did was complain - I said this MONTHS AGO (in front of my husband) after she had complained about food, her bed and who knows what else and I had heard all I could stand. SHE REMEMBERS THIS! But she cannot remember ANYTHING she has ever said or done to hurt me. IS THIS POSSIBLE??? My husband talked to her about the pension check incident a couple days later and she denied it then as well - said she didn't remember saying any such thing. My husband said she sure must have said SOMETHING that upset me because I called him 3 times at work. She said I just get upset all the time.

I tried to get her to read a post from another care giver site about the loss of independence and how many elderly take it out on their care givers. The more independence they lose the more resentment they have. She refused to read it. She just said YOU KEEP IT - some day YOU will KNOW HOW IT IS!!

After our half hour talk - she used her 'poor little me voice' and said I will stay in my rooms and you guys don't have to bother with me any more until I leave here. I don't need your help. I do the 'best I can' but it is never good enough. My hubby said sometimes our best isn't good enough - especially when you deny the hurt you cause.

She got up and started for her door. Then she turned around and said, 'by the way, the Manager of the home health agency called me last week and said YOU were crazy (meaning me).' My husband said, 'mom, you know that isn't true.' and she said 'YES IT IS' She then went into her room and slammed the door. We have every word recorded.

We know that things will never be any different if she stays. It would be up to me to keep peace and I am too tired to deal with this any more.


Things have gone downhill since her stroke and I know in my heart that there has to be something wrong for a person to act like she does. Unless I kept quiet when she lashed out she would get mad and pout in her rooms for days. The only way she would come out is if 'I' went in and apologized. I will not apologize for HER UNKIND BEHAVIOR any more. God knows what she has done and that she refuses all responsibility for the hurt she has caused me and the hurtful effects she has had on our lives. He knows that she could not have had a better care giver - although I know that I am no longer what she needs. I have enough sense and enough kindness left in me to still want her to have the best care available and we will do what we can to get it for her.

Some friends came by to visit her from Church. She was pleasant as punch. She always is. Although, I did step into the house for a moment and could tell by the look on her face when I came back out to the patio that she had just said something unkind to one of the friends. The friend acted a bit 'uncomfortable.'

I told them as they left that they would probably hear some very unkind things said about us after she moves out. I told them that the person they know and see is NOT the person who lives here with us and I left it at that. There really absolutely no defense against this sweet little 87 year old woman who has never said an 'unkind thing to anyone in her life' and 'who never loses her temper' and 'who is the calm one.' - her exact words.

I never, until today, realized that her attitude and her actions are those of a narcissist. It is possible that this is a recent development since her health has failed and especially since her stroke. We are beginning to think that she may have had more than one stroke because her attitude really has changed a lot. She has always 'stretched the truth' - but it is so much worse now.

She always made sure to never say anything in front of anyone but me for the longest time so it was always my word against hers. My husband didn't even believe me for the longest time. But, since her stroke in December, she has started saying her hateful things in front of him. When he would draw her attention to it by saying, 'mom, why did you say that to her?' she would say 'What?' 'Oh That?' ' I didn't mean anything by that.' He would say it sure sounded like you meant something and she would say 'OH, I was just kidding.' He would say - well, it wasn't very funny. If I ever mentioned that what she said unkind or thoughtless or unnecessary - she would say - I didn't mean anything by that - you just took it the wrong way or you misunderstood what I said.

Well, this party is over.

Oldcodger:

Ah, sweetie, you have been thru so much.
It hurts when people who are supposed to be normal say mean things. And it hurts when your loved ones don't believe you. I am sorry your husband didn't believe you, but he does now! You were so smart to have your husband sit down with the two of you, and you were so smart to record the conversation-that is excellent proof if any doctor or other authority questions your word.
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Yes, we are supposed to remember that our loved ones are sick, they had a stoke or dementia, but sometimes we forget to tuck our feelings down deep enough and we get hurt. on. Tucking down your feelings is very bad for you, but more on that later.,,,,,

When you make the change for your MIL, be strong. Yes, you will feel guilty, you may feel like a cold, controlling b****. ( I literally did this today and felt like a slimeball) You may even have some stranger give you a dirty look. But you are doing right, you are saving yourself and your husband. You are protecting yourself, your husband and your family. But you are also protecting your MIL who is getting more confused - oh, and you are protecting her from having her stuff taken; when she moves she will know that you cannot walk into her room and turn off the tv, she won't have to worry about you cashing her check each month. In business, this is called a win-win-win.
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You do not have to buy another bed - it is only 1 year old, for goodness sake. But, be prepared for her damaging the bed so that you feel you have to get one. Get yourself out of the money part ASAP - hubby or even a professional - they have professionals who handle money for elderly who cannot handle their own. Added benefit, that gets your MIL in the system and once a person gets into that system, things can happen for MIL benefit.
Moving your MIL is the right thing to do.
Good luck.

I have gone on the guilt trip - and I don't like the scenery. But no matter what is causing her aberrant behavior - I am not dealing with it well. She isn't dealing with this well. And I have finally come to the conclusion that IF I am to be the blame for all her unhappiness, she may as well have a good reason. But, if she allows herself to be - I think she could be very happy in her new home.

We cannot give her back her old life and her health and her husband and her friends. That's what we all want - to stay young and relatively healthy and happy. That is gone for her. I just don't want to be the brunt of her snide remarks and hurtful comments anymore with absolutely NO remorse on her part for the pain she causes me.

She is not as sinister as some of the mom's you folks are dealing with but it is the constant negativity - day in and day out that wears a person down. The coffee is too hot, the coffee is too cold, the eggs are too hard, the eggs are too soft, the TP isn't soft enough, NOTHING she has ordered at a restaurant in the last 3 years has been satisfactory, just on and on and on with the complaints. I won't go into her direct unkind remarks to me. But they hurt.

She deserves to have some semblance of peace in her final years on this earth and she is not getting it in our home. She says it is all my fault - so, I figure that if she isn't here and isn't around me too much, she WILL be happier. Sounds reasonable. :0)

At this point I have joined her in La La Land. I just hope I can find my way back home. I need a long rest. I am not getting any younger. I have health issues. I had NO IDEA what I was getting into. Of course - it wasn't too bad until she truly became dependent. That changed everything. I just pray I don't treat my children they way she has treated me.

My hubby, her oldest, was stunned by our conversation on Monday. He finds it hard to wrap his head around how his mom can 'forget' all that we have done. Not just the last 8 years, but our whole married life. He was always the one to go home and fix things around the farm when his dad couldn't or wouldn't, we took her on trips, just basically did what a son and daughter in law - what family should do for parents. Always did. Her other sons don't have time for her. Now all she can see is two people who 'want to get rid of her' - 'who don't want her around.' It is just the saddest thing - even though we know that it is very likely not her fault.

I feel I have given this my best shot. Her BP is normal, mine is through the roof. She sits in her room and watches TV or reads and looks so relaxed - I find myself pacing the floor, unable to follow a task to completion or think a thought all the way through. I am a BASKET CASE.

I have never had much help with her care. My kids all work. Her sons live far away and would never call US to see how mom was - they only call her. They visit for a day once every year or two. They have NO TIME for mom and NO TIME to provide respite for me. You can't do this sort of thing 24/7 and deal with health crisis after health crisis and not break down. My hubby does what he can - but he still works full time. He intercedes when she is mad at me.

I know there will be those who look at this sweet little woman who speaks so softly and smiles and wonder what on earth are you doing to her??? I have prayed and left this in God's hands. He and I both know what has happened and how I feel and that it cannot continue. He's the only one I worry about. I have to let the rest go.

May all of you find peace too.

Congratulations! You have done the best thing. My cousin almost had his marriage ended from his mother moving in. She was nasty to his wife from the very beginning, and he just told her to ignore it. (Sure) His wife almost left several times with the kids, and was under constant stress. Finally they put mom in a nursing home and she refused to speak to her son. I'm not sure if she ever forgave him or not, but she did die in the nursing home. I don't know how they put up with the constant stress for so long, and it affected their health, I'm sure.
Now go and do something really nice for yourself.

mary and oldcodger - look after yourselves - no one else will. Narcissists focus only on themselves. I don't think they can do otherwise. Please let go of the guilt - that was planted in you by them, to serve their unhealthy purposes. You have done absolutely nothing over which to feel guilty. You both are very kind, and caring individuals who have been pushed past a point by a person who is mentally/emotionally unhealty and the time has come to stop that kind of stress and manipulation,
Mary I am glad your mum in an NH. I have not read far back on the thread so I don't know your history, but I sure recognize the put downs you write about. One of my "faves" was "Joan is smart - maybe a little too smart" (I did well in school). She is a master at the backhanded compliment or outright derogatory remarks - "Your sister and I can wear that colour. You can't". And this all in the name of being "helpful". I recognise it well. She also wanted me to see a psychiatrist because I had "problems". She, of course, has none. She comments freely and negatively about people's weight/physical appearance, and so on. It was no fun growing up in that atmosphere, as you know
oldcodger - you are doing the right thing - do look after your health. Whatever the reason, your mil is too much for any family member home to manage, I would think. She will blame whoever she can. It looks like the stroke has exacerbated her negative behaviours What a blessing that your husband now sees the truth and is supportive..
((((((Hugs))))) to everyone who has a narcissistic family member. Draw your boundaries, and look after yourself, and don't fall for the FOG -fear, guilt and obligation.

libracat, you really need to live with a narcissist to understand what we are talking about. I have to tend my Aunt, aged 75 - As sad as it could be I only realized 2 years ago that I have spent lifetime proving my good and my right, and only 2 years ago I realized that was not an achievable goal.

2 years ago my mother died of Alzheimer's after 8 years of being sick. That's when my Aunt decided that now my emotions and time is free for her now. She is actually demanding loud and clear that I am supposed to love her more than I loved my mom (a wonderful person), because she is better than my my mom.

My Aunt has been in my life since I was 8, after my parents divorced, she gradually established herself as a leading persona, drove my mother nuts (I even feel my mother's Alzheimer was somehow triggered by her sister's permanent psychological abuse) and totally destroyed my.

She did destroy me from inside - I am 45, she became part of me, the hated one, she sat in my head all the time. Even making tiny choices in life I could hear her criticizing me for my choices. There were many times when it was just easier not to make any choices at all. It goes on till today. And it will last for more years to come.

I have to be compassionate? Are you serious? What is it a Buddhist sect? Teach me how to deal with someone so hard headed that once when she did not get what she wanted with my money (she does not have income), she even tried to "commit a suicide" by starving herself (for three days - only one banana a day, sounds to me like a healthy detox). Than she demanded to take her to the doctor immediately because she has been starved and needed medical attention. The only way to stop her was to warn her that an attempt of suicide will cause the involvement of police and psychiatrists, and she might end up in a mental institution. Treat THAT with a compassion.

What I have been looking for past few years is not what to do but how to do. I read often "set your boundaries". I have been trying to set my boundaries for past 30 years, I just don't know how. She does not recognize them! She does not understand why a person in her right mind would refuse involvement of such a wise woman!

How to be so strong and how develop a thick skin, which would help me to deal with situation. And please don't ask me to "love" her, she drove away my father from the family and turned my and my mother's lives into h*ll. I am not that big.

UPDATE: I feel for all those who are dealing with 'something' that is impossible to deal with. I am not totally sure if my MIL is a narcissist. But after the dismissal of her last bath lady and her getting a NEW home health group - she saw a social worker and a psych. therapist who wanted her to see a psychiatrist and of course the only way she would go is if I went - because, after all - all of THIS was MY fault.

I overheard her telling the social worker all manner of lies including that someone had been calling her and hanging up - harassing her early in the morning - THREE days in a row and she had her 'suspicions' as to who it was. The soc. worker had to ask her 3 or 4 times WHO she suspected before she indicated that she thought it was me! He stopped to see me and I was nearly hysterical. I told him that not ONE thing she had said was even remotely true. That many of the things she said didn't even happen. I told him to check her caller ID and he would see that I didn't call her to harass her.

I called my hubby in hysterics and he nearly came home from work to calm me. I got ready and went shopping - just browsing - just so I could think of something else. He checked her caller ID the next day and sure enough - NO ONE HAD EVER CALLED HER BEFORE 8:30 a.m. and there were NO calls from me - EVER. She lives next door - I don't call her.

She lied to me that day. I told my husband I would get her services in order and that I was NO LONGER HER CAREGIVER and he said he understood. I also booked a flight to AZ and left for two weeks (hubby couldn't get off work or he would have come with me) and stayed with my sister. Had her house to myself (they work) and I walked daily, swam in their pool, played with their dogs and NOTHING reminded me of my MIL. My BP was like I was 20 again for two weeks!

Hubby missed me terribly so I came home - but things changed and will never be the way they were. She COOKED her golden goose when she decided to vilify me to every person she comes into contact with and every person who calls or she calls and she even writes to everyone she knows and bad mouths me. My daughter in law told me about the letter she got :0(

So, when I came home, my hubby told his mother that we were now 'neighbors' and to call only in a real emergency. We put a 40 lb bag of water softener salt in front of the door so she cannot open it (not enough strength) and I glued coordinating drapery fabric to the little windows of my French doors and tied them shut with a pretty gold cord. That prevents 'surprise visitors.' :0)

I came home Sept. 8th. So, it has been 3 weeks. I do feel calmer - but my BP is still 30 points higher than when I was in AZ.

I forgot to mention that I saw my doctor (also my MIL's doctor) pre-trip. My sister was afraid I would have a stroke. The doctor said I don't have a BP problem, I have a MIL problem and we should get her OUT OF OUR HOME STAT. That isn't possible - so, separation is the next best thing. He said she does NOT have dementia - that she has ANGER AND RAGE ISSUES and I am her primary target. She has DECIDED to blame me for everyt loss - real or imagined. The hurtful things she says about me are the worst and the fact that she is relentless with them. No defense against a sweet little old lady who appears perfectly normal - but who makes up outright lies or twists even the kindest things I did into something sinister.

I heard her tell someone on the phone (I can hear her through the door - but choose NOT to listen most of the time because it upsets me) that she was waiting for this 'to blow over' and for me to 'get over it.' She is in complete denial of ever saying or doing anything to hurt me. But as far as I am concerned, she can live all alone with her denial.

She does have visitors - she gets meals on wheels and now after 2 years of never feeling 'up to going' to church, she now gets a ride and goes every Sunday - hasn't missed once in 2 months! Ever since I stopped being her caregiver. Personally, I think she goes so she will have someone to gossip to about me. We have had two of the ministers come to see us and explained what is going on and we feel reasonably confident that they realize that my MIL is 'not completely OK or rational' - but one never knows. She certainly appears rational. But she lies so much that eventually I think people will pick up on the discrepancies - eventually. She lies when it isn't even necessary to lie. I don't know how she keeps track of them all. Because if she does NOT have dementia - then she is choosing to lie. It is just the weirdest thing I have ever seen in my entire life.

Sorry for the incoherent ramble - but I am fairly brainless after years of this stuff. I told my hubby that he has only seen a couple of things his mother has done to me - not even bad stuff - but he has now at least 'caught her' in one of her lies (the phone calls). But I told him he has never experienced the rage and hate that I have - the looks that could kill, etc. I told him that because he has never seen his mother this way - I am the only one - that it is hard for him to understand. So, think how hard it is for her friends to believe - they have never seen her any way but sweet and innocent and THE VICTIM.

I just had to STOP THE INSANITY - before I went insane (not absolutely sure that hasn't already happened - but I am hoping not). So, I am finally getting used to just caring for myself and hubby. I do send over leftovers once in a while (hubby deals with his mother and checks on her each day). Had her for supper once - she was pleasant enough for the duration of the meal. When it was over I went into the kitchen and cleaned up - she talked with hubby a fee minutes and went back to her apt. That was 2 weeks ago. I just cannot have daily contact and will NEVER have one on one contact again except in an extreme emergency.

Wish I could say that moving her into Asst. Living had panned out. It didn't :0( That would have been the greatest blessing. But, this is the best we can manage for now. I guess this is what they call 'setting boundaries' - basically you have to draw the line and make it stick. I am so glad my hubby is on my side.

I hope that all of you find workable solutions. I pray for all caregivers every single night. They are the UNSUNG HERO"S in modern life. Unpaid, UN-thanked, under-appreciated. Bless you all. Just know that YOU know all that you have done even if every person on earth fails to recognize or acknowledge it. I know I did ALL that I could and probably MORE than I should have.